For days, the riot of around 100 bathers in a Berlin outdoor pool was a media topic. We spoke to Ann-Christin von Kieter from the German Bathing Society (DGfdB) and Michael Dietel from Baederland Hamburg about possible preventive measures and about new bathing cultures in Germany.
WORLD: After a mass brawl in a Berlin outdoor pool with hundreds of participants, Germany's top lifeguard Peter Harzheim told the "Bild": "I would not go to the outdoor pool with my three grandchildren." Could he feel safe with his family in Hamburg?
Michael Dietel: Of course. There are no mass brawls in swimming pools in Hamburg. That has never happened either.
Ann-Christin von Kieter: I can only agree, nothing of the sort has been reported from the Hanseatic city so far.
WORLD: And how about elsewhere in German outdoor pools?
Dietel: We don't see this topic nationwide either. Of course, there are always individual young people who misbehave. For example, I remember events in North Rhine-Westphalia and Bavaria seven years ago. But since then there have been no more such incidents in Germany.
von Kieter: You also have to look at the proportions: each of the 3,000 outdoor pools is open an average of 150 days a year. That's a total of 450,000 opening days - and on one of these days something unpleasant happened in Berlin. That doesn't justify a general warning against going to outdoor pools with children.
WORLD: How does Mr. Harzheim come to such a statement?
Dietel: I don't know either. His statement is wildly exaggerated and discourages potential bathers. This is also annoying insofar as the outdoor pools in particular, with their low-threshold leisure activities, make an important socio-political and integrative contribution.
WORLD: Speaking of integration - in Berlin there is an allegation that the vast majority of discipline violations are attributable to migrant young people.
After a mass brawl in a Berlin outdoor pool, the question of safety arises. The violence is "fixed on big cities, where many different cultures live," says Peter Harzheim, President of the Federal Association of German Swimming Champion.
Source: WELT / Thomas Klug, Nele Würzbach
von Kieter: We from the association cannot and do not want to comment on this question, especially since it is not always very clear in the social discussion what a migration background is.
WORLD: What measures do you recommend to guarantee safety and non-violence in the pools, for example, are admission controls legally possible similar to those in discotheques?
von Kieter: Discotheques are privately run and can choose who they let in. This does not apply to public pools, which means that anyone who wants access must first be admitted. But that doesn't mean that you can't kick people who misbehave or ban them from the house.
Dietel: ID checks of personal data are not allowed, that's the responsibility of the police, we don't have the legal basis for it.
WORLD: How are house bans enforced in the event of rule violations if ID checks are prohibited?
von Kieter: If there is an incident that should lead to a house ban, the police are involved anyway and can determine the personal details. Checking house bans afterwards is actually difficult. After all, you are not allowed to hang up “Wanted photos” in the checkout area.
Dietel: At Baederland Hamburg we haven't asked ourselves this question so far. We have house rules that regulate interaction. In our experience, the guests also act as a social corrective among themselves. Admission controls would be possible with an enormous amount of effort, but they are simply not necessary here in Hamburg.
WORLD: In some countries it is still common today what was also the case in Germany until the 1920s: separate bathing areas for men and women. Many a female bather wished for these "old days" to come back. Can you understand that?
Dietel: No, that would be an undesirable step backwards in society. The social debate is more in the direction of not discriminating against anyone. Everyone is equal and should be treated equally. Matching people to a pelvis because of a trait they were born with makes no sense at all.
Even in the case of sanitary facilities, there are discussions along these lines, think of unisex toilets. And changing rooms are now offered for everyone together. There is something suitable for every user group - families, women, men, collective changing rooms, individual changing rooms or also the barrier-free ones for everyone who cannot move in the ones just mentioned or do not want to assign themselves to a gender.
WORLD: There you give a new keyword: A woman who does not see herself as such and does not want to be “read” as a woman asserted that women can bathe in a Göttingen thermal bath at the weekend without a bikini top. Is the country ready for topless swimming yet?
von Kieter: The low demand in Göttingen so far shows that Germany is obviously not ready for this.
Dietel: Besides, topless bathing is not forbidden at all. In wet areas, the "usual swimwear" is provided. What is usual, however, does not define the bathrooms. It is up to politicians to find out what is desired and accepted by the majority of society. The opinion of the general public should be taken into account. And finally, looking around at the swimmers reveals what they think of as appropriate swimwear.
WORLD: Mostly accepted – that was the case for nudist bathing for a long time. Is the impression that this acceptance is slowly disappearing correct?
von Kieter: You say that what was “in” years ago no longer has to be. Surveys show that only a small proportion of people, especially pensioners in East Germany, are followers of nudism. That's why we discuss it a lot in our working groups and seminars.
WORLD: And with what result?
von Kieter: As expected, the exchange is controversial. But nudism is just one topic among many when it comes to bathing culture. As Mr. Dietel already said, it is important to perceive the needs of all stakeholder groups and still take into account the opinion of the broad masses.
WORLD: It is sometimes claimed that both skinny dipping and bathing in a body suit is unhygienic.
Dietel: First of all, of course, we assume that all guests wash themselves thoroughly with soap or shower gel before using our pools. From a hygienic point of view, however, nothing speaks against bathing in the nude and nothing against bathing in a full-body swimsuit.
The swimwear worn should only consist of the usual bathing suit fabric and be clean. How much material the bather is wearing plays a role at most in the event of a rescue. But full body suits are also designed in such a way that a rescue is not made more difficult.
WORLD: Germany has long coasts, is rich in rivers and lakes - why do we still afford energy-intensive baths, is that ecologically justifiable?
von Kieter: There is a crucial difference between bathing water and swimming pools: In the open-air pools, the supervisory staff can look down to the bottom. Supervising natural bodies of water is much more difficult. The drowning statistics of the DLRG show every year that the vast majority of fatal swimming accidents occur in unguarded inland waters.
In addition, seas, rivers and lakes are only suitable to a limited extent for learning to swim in the first place. And as far as the ecological aspect is concerned, the pool industry has been in the process of rethinking for years and is gradually converting the pools to energy-saving operation.
Dietel: In addition, public pools make an important contribution to leisure, sport and health for society. Because we organize year-round health offers in the areas of prevention and rehabilitation. At the same time, we offer space for popular and club sports. And the call for it is loud.
